Access Atlanta > Blog > Archives > 2008 > September > 28 > Entry
Interrogating students without parents’ permission
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
The principals and police departments at several metro area school districts have the authority to question students who commit discipline incidents that may also be considered as crimes (vandalism, disorderly conduct, assault, theft, etc.) without first contacting parents for their permission. The information students share with principals may be used against them in school discipline and criminal cases.
What do you think about this practice? Should parents be contacted before administrative and police interrogations? Should parents be invited to sit in? Should parents be allowed to send an attorney to the interrogations to keep their child from confessing to a crime?
Comments
By Vexorg
September 30, 2008 9:41 PM | Link to this
If a child is being charged with a violation of CRIMINAL LAW, by all means, a parent should be notified, the child notified of their Miranda Rights, and, if they choose, a lawyer be present. Any child with an average intelligence should be able to comprehend without difficulty, the “MIRANDA” warning; a child has probably heard it enough times on television to be able to recite it from memory!
In the case of violations of SCHOOL POLICIES, we as a society are “overlawyering” the authority that schools have over a child. “In Loco Parentus”, is a legal term meaning “In lieu of the parent”. Simply defined, if we, as a society are going to hold school officials LEGALLY responsible for the health, safety, and welfare of a child while that child is in attendence and coming to and from school on supplied transportation, then the school has the right to hold the child (and parents) responsible for any violation of school policies and procedures.
Violations of school policies, in my opinion, certainly do not merit these student “trials” (i.e. student tribunals); a school administrator with the legal authority should be the judge, jury, and disciplinarian in any case of violation of school policies. (it happens too in the CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM - its called a BENCH TRIAL)
In any case, we must remember that the child LEARNS their behaviors primarily from their…..PARENTS. If the parents are irresponsible, have no respect for authority or the rights of others in society, one can well expect the child to become another statistic in the Juvenile “Justice” System, well on their way to becoming a burden to society via the Criminal Justice System.
As far as parents being notified, I haven’t heard of any case where a child was being dealt with, either by a school administraitor, or a law enforcement officer, without the parent being duly notified….unless the parent was out being irresponsible, and unable to be contacted. And in those cases, the Department of Juvenile Justice takes custody of the child.
By jasonfightscrime
September 30, 2008 10:08 PM | Link to this
There is no legal requirement to read Miranda to a student who is not in the custody of a law enforcement officer even if the student is charged with a crime or delinquent offense. An SRO can interview a suspect in his office, and as long as the student is free to leave the SRO’s office, Miranda is not an issue.
When I was an SRO, I generally let the courts contact the parents when their children were summoned to court. If the child was detained in a Youth Detention Center, I’d call the parents, but otherwise, I’d file the complaint and let the courts handle it.
One thing to keep in mind when you’re talking about juveniles. The article makes a big deal about consequences, but it ignores the point of juvenile court.
Juvenile Court is there to help the child rehabilitate, not punish. They don’t children who are just going to graduate into jails and prisons. They want to get these kids to straighten out before they wind up in jail and prison with a real criminal history.
By Lee
September 30, 2008 10:15 PM | Link to this
“An SRO can interview a suspect in his office, and as long as the student is free to leave the SRO’s office, Miranda is not an issue.”
Is the student informed that his response to questioning is strictly voluntary, that he does not have to answer any questions, and that he is free to leave at anytime?
I doubt it.
By jasonfightscrime
September 30, 2008 10:38 PM | Link to this
If you really want to make sure you’re covered, then you let them know they’re free to leave your office with any suspect that you call in for an interview. The fact that the person does leave your office is pretty strong evidence that he wasn’t in custody of the interviewing officer.
It would be sort of stupid to tell him that it was that he didn’t have to answer any questions. If you’re going to do that, you might as well read Miranda.
By jasonfightscrime
September 30, 2008 10:44 PM | Link to this
Sorry there was an editing error there. It should say:
It would be sort of stupid to tell him that he didn’t have to answer any questions. If you’re going to do that, you might as well read Miranda.
By common sense
September 30, 2008 11:00 PM | Link to this
How about the little darlings just follow the rules? If they can’t follow the rules, send them on their merry way and let them become their parent’s problem. Schools are not the “holding” grounds for kids who have irresponsible parents. Don’t want to learn? Then get a f’ing job and start paying some taxes!
By Gwinnett Parent
September 30, 2008 11:13 PM | Link to this
“Juvenile Court is there to help the child rehabilitate, not punish.”
Tell that to the kids in the YDC who have had gangs of kids try to “jump” them.
By jasonfightscrime
September 30, 2008 11:32 PM | Link to this
Did it deter the juvenile from committing another delinquent act and going back to YDC?
You can’t really go to YDC for a trivial offense. In order to be detained, you have to be charged with a Misdemeanor of a High and Aggravated Nature. I don’t want anyone to get hurt, but I’m not especially sympathetic.
In fact, many sentences in juvenile court are geared towards programs that attempt to help get a kid back on track.
By Gwinnett Parent
September 30, 2008 11:49 PM | Link to this
Nope, kid quit school. Great rehab. program by the courts.
Offense was very minor,not one you would think of as a misdemeanor of a high and aggravated nature.
By NavyMom
October 1, 2008 12:49 AM | Link to this
I just don’t believe this is the ENTIRE story. My child graduates from Gwinnet County schools this school year. I have ALWAYS been notified if they have had a problem with her. Teachers are overworked and underpaid - they have a lot on their plates. I am a firm believer in the fact that these kids don’t just go to school and act up. As a parent you know or should know if your child is acting up. If parents are involved with their kids studies teachers will contact you if there is a problem. Let’s get the ENTIRE STORY HERE.
If a “child” is doing something to that EXTREME then HECK YES they should be questioned without the parents. Who has time to wait for a parent to come up there and chances are lie. Most times they are in denial about their unruly kids.
By red
October 1, 2008 6:55 AM | Link to this
and what happens when the parents fail to give the schools the right phone numbers or just doesn’t want to answer the phone call from the school?
By jasonfightscrime
October 1, 2008 6:57 AM | Link to this
Why would a parent let their kid quit school?
I can’t imagine why juvenile court would allow that if the child was under the supervision of the court.
By Gwinnett Parent
October 1, 2008 7:32 AM | Link to this
jasonfightscrime - Go research the drop out statistics and increased risks associated with incarceration for students who are just even suspended from school —in middle school.
By Sharon
October 1, 2008 8:11 AM | Link to this
When my daughter was in the 5th grade, she was pulled out of class for two days and questioned. She was a witness to an incident on the playground. The handling of the event was quite upsetting to her and she was advised not to tell her parents. I find this practice very alarming.
By former teacher
October 1, 2008 8:52 AM | Link to this
Parents are just as bad as their kids…lock ‘em all up!
By tgardner
October 1, 2008 9:02 AM | Link to this
I really think this is a stupid discussion. Why are the principals in our schools to begin with. You can never speak with a principal of a school when asked. You get an administrative assistant or a counselor. It seems as though a principal doesn’t have much of a purpose anymore. My mother taught me “if you break little laws when you are little, you will break big laws when you are big.” I had children in Gwinnett County Schools for 28 years. I have 5 children. When the process of no corporal punishment was instilled in the schools, they lost all control. You have to have fear of a repercussion in the event you do something wrong. Take them out of school. Supend them. Get them out of the teachers hair, let them lose time in class learning what they need for the future. This is why our children are not passing the crct, sat’s etc. It is nothing to do with the children or the parents. I always was afraid of the consequences if I did not listen in class or misbehaved, due to you were told 1 or 2 times to behave, and if you didn’t you got paddled or had to sit in the hall. I never did that, but I was embarrassed for the children who did, and so were they. But it is far past that now for our children of today. They are not scared, embarrassed or shamed by anything. So therefore let’s get another group formed to take these children and make them look as though they do nothing wrong. Then parents you can go and 1. Go visit them in prison, or 2.Bury them. It is really sad that we have these children today that do not “fear” or “respect” much of anyone or anything. By the way, I am not speaking of everyone, but if you ask your children how their day went or called the school ever so often just to speak to the teacher, you may know some things prior to the police informing you. Get involved before it is too late.
By DLGURL
October 1, 2008 9:05 AM | Link to this
I truly believe that schools have gone overboard with this interrogation nonsense and are really out to make mountains out of mole hills. As an African-American parent, I have noticed a disproportionate amount of black male children at my son’s school (including my son) that are always at the forefront of some “behavioral” issue. I consider myself to be a great parent. We do homework daily. I even have Saturday school as I am unhappy regarding the level of work that my children are receiving. I also have parental controls on the computer and the television, and I work really hard to encourage respectful behavior.
I am receiving notes for nonsense such as throwing wood chips over the fence. My son is a fourth grader. For pete’s sake! Isn’t this what they do? I got another note that he was throwing rocks. His version, “we weren’t throwing them, we were having a skipping contest.” He left the room without permission to go to the media center. Well that happens when you foster an environment of “hey you can go to the media center (and some kids can’t). This is supposed to be one of the best systems in the state..with all of their high schools ranking in the top 20 at least (and there are only 4).
My son wrote a paper last year. Yes he is fascinated with the hip hop culture. Personally I don’t care for it (it could never be as good, fun and clean) as it was in the 80s. This led to an interrogation of what was going on in my home. Needless to say after I fired off an email to the superintendent, principal, assistant principal, school counselor, school psychologist, and his teacher..that my child will not be questioned again unless you suspect abuse. That ended that, but now he has become a thorn it seems. I am working very hard to remove him and prayerfully, we will be out of this system either by the winter/holiday break or by the end of the year!!! Thans for letting me share my 2 cents on student interrogation!
By Been There Done That
October 1, 2008 10:07 AM | Link to this
I definately think the schools should have to call the parents, and I think they should have to be able to prove their accusations beyond a reasonable doubt.
This injustice happened to my son while he was in Middle School. Even if the child tries to invoke the fifth amendment, the school officials ignore it. My son asked numerous times for them to call me and they did not. He was told they would call me after he was arrested, which was the first I heard of it. Also, he refused to write a written statement and was held in a room for about 3 hours before they would accept the fact that he would not write a statement. When he tried to leave the room to get a drink of water, they physically held him down.
My advise… Get a Lawyer. Without a lawyer the “panel” is a joke. The parent cannot subpoena the other students because the school will not give you their addresses. My son was accused by another student and claimed the incident happened while waiting for the afternoon bus, but my son did not ride the bus in the afternoon, however, we had way to prove that he did not ride the bus, although, they also could not prove that he did ride the bus. And another student wrote a statement that the incident had occured during PE class, but he was not in PE class with that student. Again, we could not prove it because we could not get that student’s records without a lawyer. I thought it would all come out in the hearing because I thought they should have to prove these facts. And guess what, they do not. It is not at all like a true trial. It is just their way of getting rid of students that they do not want in their school. We lost the hearing and he was required to attend the GIVE school. However, when we went to a real court of law. (Gwinnett County Juvenile Court) Guess what we won the case, because, the school could not prove any of their claims. So, please all parents, tell you children to keep their mouths shut and do not say anything to the administrators! That was my advise to my son, and he has since graduated High School and is now attending college.
By Mickey
October 1, 2008 2:52 PM | Link to this
Dear Sir/Madam;
I have uncovered legal loop holes in Georgia Code that allows unethical educators the ability to persecute and discriminate against students. In addition I have come to realize that an educator can easily engage in persecution and discrimination without worry of being punished by hiding behind the “immunity” clause in the Georgia State Constitution. After speaking with other people that have children in school, it occurs to me that not very many people understand the ramifications of “immunity” without “accountability”, especially for minorities.
The loop holes undermine the integrity of the public school system. I can provide a very specific example of why educators need accountability for their immunity. I am witnessing more and more arrogance on the part of educational administrators because they are untouchable. I have witnessed how a student was persecuted and discriminated against simply because an administrator became aggravated with him and later deliberately violated his civil rights. I strongly believe that educational administrators develop arrogance because of the immunity they are granted by the state. Simply put, they are untouchable. I have personally witnessed a principal call the police and make false statements and false implications and when the principal’s conduct was reported, it went unpunished because of the relationship between the local government and the district attorney. I have personally witnessed a principal commit violations of Georgia Code in the name of “part of his duties” to side step his wrong doing when he made false statements to the police.
Under the current laws and accountability rules, minorities do not have a chance in the public school system, in the event an administrator wants to expel them from their school. It’s no wonder the Give Center in Gwinnett County is over flowing with minorities. See recent news articles.
Laws that need to be addressed in order to reform Georgia Code and develop proper accountability are listed below.
The tribunal process today has a judge (the principal), a prosecutor (the principal), a jury (people that work for the principal), the charge comes from documentation that is provided solely by the principal (disciplinary file), and witnesses are allowed only if the principal allows them to be present. A police report may be entered into evidence and the student unaware that the police report even exists.
The current state of record keeping in the Georgia public school system is unfair and allows unethical behavior to go unpunished.
I hope that you will help me raise awareness in the legislature to make changes in the laws so that penalties are provided when anyone violates the law.
Sincerely,
By jim d
October 1, 2008 3:02 PM | Link to this
Sieg Heil Napoalvin. (and the likes)
Scaring kids is SOP when ever a school wishes to do so. Or at least that is what the courts have ruled. So best to educate your child as to their right to remain silent or to request an attorney be present and then just shut up.
It really pis@# me off to hear that SRO’s have the power to question and arrest because they are law enforcement officers and yet they are not required to comply with our children’s constitutional rights.
I for one say either strip our schools of all SRO’s or place them under the direct authority of the County Sherriff’s dept. and let them start acting as professional law enforcement officials.
It is further my opinion, based upon observation, that SRO’s are nothing more than a school supers. personal Gestapo!! Used to intimidate small children and any parent that would dare speak out against a school system or its policies.
By patrick
October 1, 2008 3:07 PM | Link to this
Wouldn’t we be better off if our priorities were: 1. teach our kids to stay out of trouble. 2. teach our kids to respect authority 3. teach our kids what to do if they find thenselves in trouble? Aren’t all of the above parental responsibilities?
By jim d
October 1, 2008 3:11 PM | Link to this
Mickey,
there are several places you may wish to post your request. Might I suggest this one for starters.
By Advocate
October 1, 2008 3:58 PM | Link to this
SRO’s and the powers they are given, the rights that are not permitted our children as students and the fact they can proceed as they are allowed constitute a violation of Federal law.
By West Cobb Dad
October 1, 2008 4:30 PM | Link to this
I was not aware of any of this. Now I know. I am talking to my son tonight that he is not to answer ANY questions posed to him without having me be called first and to keep his mouth shut.
By Parent Coalition
October 1, 2008 4:36 PM | Link to this
West Cobb Dad - Go to the parent coalition training this weekend. Even though it is focused on the disciplinary process in Gwinnett, it will give you a framework to ask the right questions, should you ever have to in Cobb.
By Gwinnett Dad
October 1, 2008 11:18 PM | Link to this
SROs are police officers and have the same authority and constitutional obligations as any other police officer, no more, no less. In Gwinnett, they are college educated, highly trained, and well supervised. Most come from the county police but must have over 10 years experience to be considered. Just speaking to a kid about an incident does not constitute an ‘interrogation’ and Miranda does not apply when the kid is free to leave. How is that violating anyone’s constitutional rights?
By Enlightened
October 2, 2008 1:17 AM | Link to this
To Gwinnett Dad: Their constitutional rights were violated because you did not make the student aware that “the kid is free to leave”and anything that they said will be used against them.
By Enlightened
October 2, 2008 1:26 AM | Link to this
The role of the SRO has moved from protecting the students to policing the students, which helps to feed the school to prison pipeline.
By gwinnett dad
October 2, 2008 3:39 PM | Link to this
Enlightened, no different than anyone else that has contact with a police officer. If you have a traffic accident and call the police do they tell you you are free to leave before they asked you what happened? And do you think the SROs are just making up these charges? I agree the SRO role has changed but isn’t that out of necessity? If they weren’t handling these complaints, some other police officer would. It just can’t be ignored. The real problem is much bigger than anything the schools can deal with. It is the reality of the times we live in and a failure of our society to instill in our young people a respect for the authority overall.
By gwinnett dad
October 2, 2008 3:42 PM | Link to this
Enlightened, no different than anyone else that has contact with a police officer. If you have a traffic accident and call the police do they tell you you are free to leave before they asked you what happened? And do you think the SROs are just making up these charges? I agree the SRO role has changed but isn’t that out of necessity? If they weren’t handling these complaints, some other police officer would. It just can’t be ignored. The real problem is much bigger than anything the schools can deal with. It is the reality of the times we live in and a failure of our society to instill in our young people a respect for the authority overall.
By KIM
October 2, 2008 6:38 PM | Link to this
You don’t have anything to worry about if your kid is not breaking thelaw. I think if a child is charged with a crime, then the parent should be notified. If it is a school rule infraction, don’t waste time, schools: go on and do the investigation. I don’t want my precious grandchildren in school with anyone who can’t behave. And I don’t wish the principals had to deal with this at all.
By Parent
October 2, 2008 7:29 PM | Link to this
Please Gwinnett Dad…the majority of the arrests at school are for non violent, victimless crimes, non property related offenses. Most police officers on the streets wouldn’t be filing charges.
By Been There Done That
October 3, 2008 10:04 AM | Link to this
Dear Gwinnett Dad: The problem is, the child is NOT free to leave! As far as teaching kids to respect all adults, I will not do that. I have taught my children that respect must be earned. Just because an adult is a teacher, pastor, priest, etc., that in and of itself does not deserve respect, especially if that same person is not respectful of my child. As you must know many children are taken advantage of by adults in these authority positions.
TO Kim: You think they have to break the law for this to happen. Not so… As I said my son was accused of things that could not have happened, and I know he was not a “model” student, he was mostly the class clown. The infractions in his disciplinary record were for things like, wearing a hat at school, talking in the hallway, talking at lunch, and the one that really got me was, jumping and running around the gymnasium during PE class. You see everything is way too structured for an ADHD kid. Even recess in the elementary schools are structured. And there is no recess or breaks for the kids in Middle School. Do you work for eight hours without being able to talk to your friends or family, especially if they are in the same room with you all day? Even the lunchroom and hallways are now considered no talking zones. Our kids need a break, not jail!
By Level playing field
October 14, 2008 11:07 AM | Link to this
Get a lawyer HUH ? How many people can afford 200+ hr legal advice and the Gwinnett School System knows this. How many won cases do parents get there money back ? A 14 to 16 yr old being harrassed will answer questions they way the interviewer wants just to get from under intense questioning. This will later foster disrespect for not only the school system but law enforcement. In Gwinnett my view is time for Wilbanks to be retire. That said bet ACLU will in time intervene out here(Gwinnett)someone mentioned Brookwood and think one can search board for several ACLU cases concerning that school. That said our postings mean nothing to the school system out in Gwinnett.
By Level playing field
October 14, 2008 11:07 AM | Link to this
Get a lawyer HUH ? How many people can afford 200+ hr legal advice and the Gwinnett School System knows this. How many won cases do parents get there money back ? A 14 to 16 yr old being harrassed will answer questions they way the interviewer wants just to get from under intense questioning. This will later foster disrespect for not only the school system but law enforcement. In Gwinnett my view is time for Wilbanks to be retire. That said bet ACLU will in time intervene out here(Gwinnett)someone mentioned Brookwood and think one can search board for several ACLU cases concerning that school. That said our postings mean nothing to the school system out in Gwinnett.
By Level playing field
October 14, 2008 11:07 AM | Link to this
Get a lawyer HUH ? How many people can afford 200+ hr legal advice and the Gwinnett School System knows this. How many won cases do parents get there money back ? A 14 to 16 yr old being harrassed will answer questions they way the interviewer wants just to get from under intense questioning. This will later foster disrespect for not only the school system but law enforcement. In Gwinnett my view is time for Wilbanks to be retire. That said bet ACLU will in time intervene out here(Gwinnett)someone mentioned Brookwood and think one can search board for several ACLU cases concerning that school. That said our postings mean nothing to the school system out in Gwinnett.
By molatron
October 23, 2008 10:09 AM | Link to this
I am a child from a school in cornwall and I was questioned because of suspected arson which i had nothing to do with. I was lead into a different room and questioned without my parents. this was intimidating as i hadnt done anything. my parents were angry that they hadnt even been told that I was being questioned. I think the law should be changed so that parents should be present when their child is being questioned. it would give the child confidence and help hem to feel safe.