By high school teacher

February 28, 2006 11:21 AM | Link to this

For starters, politicians (and Bill Gates) can realize that China and other nations to which we are compared do not educate everyone. Education is a privilege, not an inherent right. Secondly, put vocational education back in schools.

By dee

February 28, 2006 11:30 AM | Link to this

I have been very impressed with Phoenix High School in Lawrenceville. There is no social pressure, because this school is an alternative for those with needs like child care. They are there to get an education and the school has set high standards for the students. Many graduate with honors, whereas in the other public schools, they suffered. So it seems to me that the social pressures put on school kids hinders them.

By jim dumond

February 28, 2006 11:47 AM | Link to this

HST? Ok, what percentage of chineese students get booted?

Should we resort to the same type of class stratification that they have? Or, should we about improving life for all citizens?

Note that I agree on the Voc.Ed., but having Government make that decision is where we separate on this concept.

By high school teacher

February 28, 2006 12:08 PM | Link to this

Let me clarify Jim. I’m saying that in China, kids are booted out of the system at a certain age - I don’t know the percentage, sorry!. In Japan, parents spend thousands on sending their kids to preparatory school, after they have already been in school all day, so that they can pass the test to go to school at the next level. Middle school students in Germany either go to high school or go to the Mercedes plant as an apprentice. I don’t agree with all of these policies. I get furious each time I see American schools compared to non-American schools. We don’t have the same system, so we won’t have the same results.

I am all about improving life for all citizens; however, improving life for all does not equate to making all kids college material. That’s why we desperately need voc ed. Kids can learn how to make a living while they are still in high school.

By Laura

February 28, 2006 12:18 PM | Link to this

Make 11th and 12th grades structured like a jr college so kids have more choices - vocational or college prep and are only at school when they have class which can be held day or night.

(Our local jr college is actually starting such a high school on their campus next year.)

By Robert

February 28, 2006 12:37 PM | Link to this

What? Are they nuts?

First of all, increasing the requirements/standards in high school courses is ridiculous. Getting students to perform at the current level is difficult enough! Do they really think that increasing the requirements will help? Get real! Note that I am talking about the general level student, not the accelerated ones.

Litte Johnny in general level Math class will not even bother doing the addition and subtraction homework. What makes anyone think that putting little Johnny in a Math class with Algebra and Trig will suddenly motivate Johnny?????

And, politicans and everyone else needs to stop coming down on the high schools! We get incoming freshman that cannot read, cannot write, cannot do basic math, and somehow we are expected to mold them into college students????? Reform MUST begin in the pre-school years and then work its way up - not the other way around. Give the high schools freshman that at least have some minimal knowledge and skills before expecting high school teachers to perform miracles!!!!!

Along those lines, I propose a State middle school exit exam that each student must pass in order to move on to high school. This exit exam should be created by high school teachers that know the knowledge and skills a student must already have obtained in order to succeed in high school. If a student cannot pass this minimal test, they do not go to high school, period. The student can repeat the 8th grade, can go to a vocational school, can work toward a GED, or whatever.

By jim dumond

February 28, 2006 01:00 PM | Link to this

HST,

Is this where we really want to go? Looks like several steps backwards to me.

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~alpark/papers/harvard.pdf

By jim dumond

February 28, 2006 01:24 PM | Link to this

“What really needs to happen to make high schools more engaging and more connected to life after graduation?”

Patti, here’s my top ten list.

1) Quit pushing everyone towards a college degree.

2) Offer more diverse choices to students such as Voc.Ed.

3) Provide job placement services for Voc.Ed students.

4) Inform students of trade associations offering job placement and trade instructional schools that would further provide skills and help them get placed in an apprentice program.

5) Adequately prepare students seeking higher education with the skills needed to succeed in institutes of higher learning.

6) Provide an equitable means of funding higher education for lower income students.

7) Stop attempting to educate the world and work with the talent we have in this country

8) Stop forcing Government operated schools, allowing for free competition

9) Stop age grouping. Group by ability and desire

10) Keep teachers that are getting the job done, Fire the rest.

By Nel

February 28, 2006 01:41 PM | Link to this

This is all very nice on paper but unless everyone involved acknowledges that education begins as in elementary school, no amount of revamping in high school will work if the foundation has not been laid in the earlier grades. It all amounts to shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted.

By high school teacher

February 28, 2006 02:05 PM | Link to this

I couldn’t agree with you more, Jim. I think that we are saying the same thing in that we need to offer kids more choices, namely with vocational education. Am I right in saying that you don’t think we should push all students on the college track? That’s what I’m saying too. I just mentioned the other countries because that’s the impetus for this Achieve Inc. - our students in high school don’t perform as well as high school students in other countries.

By Jeff

February 28, 2006 02:05 PM | Link to this

I’m covering concepts TODAY that I learned on-level in 3rd grade!!!!(For those who don’t know, I teach HS math)

I’m only 5 yrs older than my seniors, my youngest brother is the same age as the majority of the kids I teach. What happened in those 5 yrs????? (Or was I just oblivious as a student to what was really going on??)

Por ejemplo: My last chapter was basically all about how to plot a point and graph a line. This chapter is all about basic geometry: What is a line? What is an acute angle? What do the angles of a polygon sum to? What is a translation of a geometric figure? etc etc etc. These are mostly 10th grade kids!!!

By Proud Parent

February 28, 2006 02:07 PM | Link to this

It’s hard to take any new initiative in education seriously, because I believe the focus must begin at the elementary and middle schools. I’m not saying to forget about the current high school students, because they need help as well. However, we need to spend money, getting students engaged in elementary and middle school – which will produce the results we want in high school. All children by the end of 10th grade should have obtained all the necessary skills to pass the basic high school graduation exam.

High schools should then have the option to focus on a specific educational background (Technical, College Prep, Workforce). The Workforce option should be the last resort of all students, because many do not have the experience or job skills necessary to get the positions needed to provide for a family. If a child opts for the Workforce, we should have a program in place (job fairs, internships, half days school/work, mentoring and JOB PLACEMENTS) that will teach the kids skills that will be necessary to obtain a job. High school does not prepare students for the workforce.

Children need exposure to what it takes to obtain “Real World� jobs. Many do not realize that you can’t make a living at McDonalds or as a Wal-Mart cashier. This needs to be introduced early in life, between 5th and 7th grade.

So, my opinion of this topic is “We Need To Start Early� any initiatives should start in elementary schools.

By jim dumond

February 28, 2006 02:15 PM | Link to this

Agreed Nel, but I was only asked about high school. Here’s another top ten list for the lower grades.

1) Mandatory attendance at age 7, optional at 5 or 6

2) Group students by ability

3) Eliminate high stakes testing

4) Stop forcing Government operated schools, allowing for free competition

5) Year round schooling

6) Provide an array of alternative teaching methods and curriculum, especially for children with needs.

7) Limit class size to 20 students, per teacher (no parapros)

8) Limit school enrollment to 300 students in K-5 and 600 in 6-8

9) Offer foreign language in K-8

10) Teachers? Keep the best and fire the rest.

By oldteacher

February 28, 2006 02:45 PM | Link to this

Wow, Jim, I do like your lists.

By jim dumond

February 28, 2006 02:55 PM | Link to this

Too bad the politico’s don’t see the light. But then maybe they do and realize no gain could be made politically from doing what really needs doing.

By Nel

February 28, 2006 03:08 PM | Link to this

Jim, you forget that if things were being done the right way, they would all have to get real jobs instead of sponging off of the rest of us.

By VoEd

February 28, 2006 03:15 PM | Link to this

Vocational Education or as we call it these days Career and Technical Education is alive and well in most Georgia schools. The problem is that career and technical education students need the same math, language arts, social sciences and science skills as college bound students. Algebra and Geometry are applied in Agriculture, Construction and Family and Consumer Science Courses. Science skills are needed in Agriculture, Heath Occ., Family and Consumer Sciences, etc. Advanced reading and writing skills are needed in all areas of Career and Technical Education. Please don’t assume that Career and Tech Ed. or Vocational classes are for students that don’t perform well in upper level classes. Career and Technical education teachers went to the same colleges and graduated with bachelor’s degrees (or higher) as academic teachers. Vocational classes are not for dummies. Vocational classes allow students to apply academic skills in work related laboratory settings. Try letting a low level student read a manual and work on you car. Have a low level student build your house. Send a low level “vocational” student to nursing school (they will not make it). All students need to be required to step it up academically. The problem is we are so concerned about our drop out rate that we will do anything to keep students in school. We keep discipline problems around to keep our attendance up and drop out rate down. School should be for those that want to learn and succeed.

By jim dumond

February 28, 2006 03:16 PM | Link to this

OH—I’ve NOT forgotten

By jim dumond

February 28, 2006 03:28 PM | Link to this

Yo Vo Ed,

We can at least teach them how to count change so they can keep a burger flipping job. I’ve seen too many that can’t even do that and these are kids that stuck it out. For what?

By V for Vendetta

February 28, 2006 03:39 PM | Link to this

Jim, I whole-heartedly agree with your lists. But, since government run schools are probably a long-term reality, may I offer an added rule…

• A three strikes and you’re out rule put into place by high school. Three serious behavior violations and you are expelled from that school and NOT ALLOWED BACK.

I feel that if there were actual consequences, and behavior issue kids were dealt with, the learning environment would improve drastically. Just a suggestion, but you’re right on the $$$$ with your other proposed ideas.

By VoEd

February 28, 2006 03:39 PM | Link to this

Jim,

There are not any career and tech ed. standards that require we teach children to count change back to you. Too many students come to career and tech ed. classes lacking in academic skills needed to work in any job. My kindergarten child is learning to count money. I think this issue should be addressed in the early grades. Counting change back is a skill learned long before high school. The problem that most burger flippers, teachers, managers, etc. have is a lack of work ethics. Academic nor career and tech ed. teachers are supported in there efforts to grade on work ethics. I appreciate your concern.

By Nel

February 28, 2006 03:43 PM | Link to this

VoEd, you are absolutely correct that whatever direction your career might take you still need to learn your 3Rs, the problem is that in many minds, Vocational Ed is the cure all for what ails those kids who don’t perform well in high school, not an alternative career path.

By jim dumond

February 28, 2006 03:50 PM | Link to this

Voed,

The counting change thingy was just an example of how we’re failing these kids, but you’re dead on with the work ethic comment. I commented earlier today on that very subject on another of Patti’s blogs.

http://www.ajc.com/blogs/content/shared-blogs/ajc/education/entries/2006/02/24/americanidoli.html#comments

By lucinda

February 28, 2006 04:26 PM | Link to this

Group students by ability Group students by academic/vocational track Group students by ability Group students by academic/vocational track Group students by ability Group students by academic/vocational track Group students by ability Group students by academic/vocational track Group students by ability Group students by academic/vocational track

Did I mention, group students by ability?

No everybody is capable of taking AP Physics. Let’s stop pretending they are!

By danielle

February 28, 2006 04:31 PM | Link to this

I am a high school special ed teacher. First, at what point do we hold the students accountable for their work and themselves. If they don’t do the homework and classwork or have good behavior they CHOOSE to be uneducated. I have good kids who are not able to pass the tests. They need the vocational classes and job training. Give them incentives. Give them choices. NOt more tests. The tests get discouraging and needless at a certain point. Also, allow school admin. to kick out students who purposely cause trouble and see school as a place to socialize and get free food. Reward the good kids; pay attention to them. Give kids options and direction. They will succeed. But focusing only on college or tests isn’t going to work for all kids.

By jim dumond

February 28, 2006 04:35 PM | Link to this

Luci, No—————but what do you think about grouping by ability?

By Nel

February 28, 2006 04:42 PM | Link to this

Although it sound good to say throw the bums out if they don’t want to play by the rules, what do you plan on doing when they take over the streets because they obviously need money from somewhere? How many kid who dropped out have returned to school because they saw the light? Find a way to connect with them early and realize that not everyone learns the same way because the alternatives are extremely frightening for our society if we fail.

By VoEd

February 28, 2006 04:51 PM | Link to this

Danielle,

Special education students may need vocational training, but most cannot meet standards in career and tech ed. classes. This is one reason career and tech ed. classes have gotten such a bad reputation. Career and tech ed. classes require that students apply high level academic skills. If special education students can’t take high level academic classes then they can’t really pass career and tech ed. classes. Most special education students need training programs not career and tech ed. classes. I’ve been told many times that a special ed. student can’t do the work required in my class and that he/she is there just for socialization. This student could be in a training program learning a skill instead of taking up a seat in a class.

By David200

February 28, 2006 05:22 PM | Link to this

Nel,

I agree about people learning different ways. The problem is when they get out and have a job, the boss will want it done “his” way, not “their” way. Secondly, there’s not many ways to teach addition or comprehension of reading. The student either learns or not.

Believe me, I understand about the different ways people learn, and I do sympathize. I have four children, and they all have different learning styles, but they learned how to overcome their difficulties. It was their responsibility to learn to “overcome, adapt, and improvise,” not their teachers.

Jim, I read the URL you directed HST to. I assume you noticed that in China, even the poor had to pay a fee for education, and that the children of the poor learned very early that if they didn’t succeed in education, they were going to end up as a farmer like their parents. That’s a tremendous motivator. I have a quote in my classroom: “That which you obtain easily, is valued lightly.” I’m afraid that’s what we’re seeing now.

Our real problem in education is that the jobs for dropouts (historically 40% - and that’s held constant for over three generations)is disappearing. Those jobs are now being done in Asia and Southeast Asia for pennies per day, and that will not change. The “high paying jobs” are only ‘do-able’ by “high-achieving kids.” Not every kid is able to do that. I don’t know what the solution to globalization is. Maybe ship our kids that refuse to learn to Southeast Asia to work for pennies as farmers and assemblers? I just don’t know.

By SET

February 28, 2006 06:32 PM | Link to this

We need to stop students from being admitted to High School when there is no reasonable basis for believing they can participate at grade level.

Use the current exit test (for example the one in CA) as an entrance exam. Start offering clearance testing at 4th grade. The “exit” test is math and verbal at 8th grade level. Those who have problem getting cleared should be well aware of their shortcomings by 6th to 8th grade and can plan their careers accordingly. Provide alternative schools and training for the left Side of the Bell Curve. High School for those who are at grade level only.

Additionally make it clear that there will be a morals and fitness standard in the High Schools that will exclude the psychopaths, the druggies, the violent, the promiscious. Students who manage to pick up criminal records, drug records and are sexually active will be diverted to alternative education if any and not allowed to sit with the Academic students.

That doesn’t mean we will be polygraphing or even random drug testing anybody. But if their undesirable activities get out into the open they no longer sit with the Academic kids. Testing could follow problems that are noticed at school - like passing out at school, accidents and fighting, etc. Followed by expulsion or transfer with related referrals to good programs elsewhere.

I think you will find that high schools run on these terms will be happier and more productive learning environments and better for the teachers to work in also.

And the money we spend on alternative education will be honest money. Not the fraudulent no-learning educational spending we do now. Voc ed, Auto mechanics, Hotel Maid training, Medical assisting, service work training, Construction trades, etc. People who will be making a living with their hands need to start work by age 15. They lose opportunity and work years when we make them sit in classes they can’t understand till age 18.

And don’t think for a minute that there won’t be huge racial disparities when this begins. Now does it matter? No, It doesn’t matter. I care about performance and productivity and I don’t care a bit about diversity or multicultural nonsense. You either keep up with the herd you chose to run with or transfer to where you fit in.

By luvs2teach

February 28, 2006 07:10 PM | Link to this

We need more classes with real world applications.

If your real world after high school includes college, then you need to have classes like those you would be exposed to in college.

If your real world includes the military, then you sould be in ROTC, PE, and doing community service in addition to the basics.

If your real world includes working in a restaurant, then you should be in cooking classes and working in the cafeteria or a school-run bakery.

If your real world includes working as a mechanic, then you should be taking shop classes as well as work-study.

If your real world includes working in business, then you should be taking computer classes, English, and working in the office or work study off-campus.

Etc, etc, etc…

Up north, about 1978, we took a test in the 8th grade called the differential aptitude test. The results of that, along with our ITBS test scores, were used for planning our high school career - college-prep, business prep, general voc ed, or going to our specialized vocational high school that had tracks such as cosmetology, auto mechanic, electrician, graphic design, and culinary arts. My cousin’s husband graduated from the elctrician track, and regularly makes $80,000. I’m a teacher, so you know what I make!

I don’t understand why this is so hard.

By Nikole

February 28, 2006 07:21 PM | Link to this

I agree with a lot of the comments, but would have hated having to decide what I was going to do with my life at 16 years old. Many college students fail brcause they have no sense of direction at 18. My professor at GSU only found out how much he wanted to go to college after having to work for a while after graduating high school. I have friends now just finding their passions after having been through graduate school. There are things I want to accomplish in life, but have not yet been trained to do. My sister does not want to take the vocational career path she pursued in high school.

By Lauren

February 28, 2006 07:25 PM | Link to this

SET - you are a very scary person, and, I am so happy you are in California - far away from me and my family!

By jim dumond

February 28, 2006 07:31 PM | Link to this

SET, you seem to forget these kids are the future. Think about that when you are old and gray and they take the same stance towards the old and decrepit SET as you are taking now.

By tommy

February 28, 2006 07:48 PM | Link to this

If students are not prepared and conditioned to perform well by the time they reach high school, then something is wrong in elementary school. I would attribute failure to parents who fail to take interest in how their kids are doing in school.Parents should expect their children to live up to the stadards set by schools and prepared to discipline them if they fail to do so.

By Lee

February 28, 2006 09:12 PM | Link to this

Don’t these principals talk to each other? If a high school teacher is having to provide remedial instruction to incoming freshmen, what does that say about the level of instruction in middle school? Not much, IMHO. Same goes for elementary to middle school. Seems to me it would be a easy thing to track which students came from which teacher and determine how well (or poorly) that teacher prepared them for the next level.

I agree with Jim who said we should do away with age grouping and group by ability. The way I see it, this is the only way we are going to allow the average / above average student to reach their full potential.

The reason we have all this emphasis on testing is because teachers and administrators were passing students along who couldn’t do the work. If a teacher has a student for 180 days, we shouldn’t have to depend on a test to tell us that he can’t do the work. That should have been communicated long, long ago….

By meme

March 1, 2006 08:03 AM | Link to this

I like this idea: Group students by ability Group students by academic/vocational track.

Also, 8th graders in Georgia are still given the career placement test. You might be surprised at how many still think that they will be a professional athlete or start off as the president of a company. Real world experiences would be great for this kids.

By SET

March 1, 2006 10:24 AM | Link to this

Lauren, Jim, et al..

Do you believe the the other posters such as myself bear ill will towards secondary students because we propose to change the government school nuthouse to group students by ability and to shift the non performing students out of academic schools?

Do you contend that the status quo “helps” students - especially the non performing students who “graduate” at 8th grade reading level and lower?

Do you believe it “hurts” students to be forced to meet criteria to remain in academic schools, rather than to face exclusion at a certain point of non performance in favor of vocational training - or drug rehab, life training, etc?

What is amusing to me in some of these posts is the supposedly adult posters who believe that a mere slip of paper such as a diploma is an asset to somebody who performs at below 8th grade level on math abd verbal tests. We have hysterical adults here who want to force California to give this srap of paper to non-performers because it woulr “hurt’ the child to be deprived of it no matter how the child performed in school.

I am not proposing to hurt children by removing them from academic schools just after puberty. As one poster pointed out, one can make a real living as a chef, a blue collar worker, a prison guard, etc. Certain blue collar or uniformed workers in this economy are the new Auto Workers - they earn enough to suppport a family and purchase a home - especially in tandem with a similar spouse.

The diplomas or certificates would be coming from vocational high schools which would train these workers to master a trade or three and get them into apprenticeships as early as possible. So that they don’t get bored with school, get drunk, drop out, and lie around all day feeling like failures at 14 like they do now in your one-size-fits-all state schools.

Your schools are failures for one-third to one half of your students. I say that for the National Urban schools - such as LA and SF Unified School Districts here, and the 50 or so largest cities in the USA. How do you propose we handle the present situation? More classroom aides??

People who propose reform & change are not out to make things worse. You have had your day.

Look at the stats nationally for black mortality and institutionalization. Blacks in Calif in the 10 to 20 year old range are being hearded to their deaths and to prison in numbers so large it could be compared to the halocast. In my county the average new AIDS dx is a black female age 24 who has been infected 10 years. Blacks are 5% of the county. If we were to institute forced testing of black adolecents we pretty well know what we would find - and we could stop the spread. Well it’s not going to happen. This government is happy to allow them to get infected. All this done in the name of “privacy”.

The drug and prison numbers are well known. And the bastardy rate - which as Daniel Moynihan famously warned about - fuels all the other pathology. Putting adolescents who can’t cut it in bored-to-death schools is a recipie for the disaster we see unfolding.

I would prefer to have a lot of ghetto kids getting up 1st thing in the morning for cooking, auto mechanics, HVAC, plumbing, and any other class that promises them fast returns (6 mos Auto mechanic certificate = $20k starting wage) that ever placing them in English Lit. And for this you think I’m scary?

The road to hell is paved with good intentions, yours included.

There is nothing for the left side of the bell curve in your schools. Combined with the open borders policies of both parties, you give our below-average youth nothing to look forward to but permanent poverty and chaos.

Yes I’m in California. Take heed what is happening here because it is spreading across America. No one will hire black workers when there is an immigrant ready, willing and able to take the same job. Can you conceive of that in GA? Affirmation action is being outlawed. Can you get your mind around that? If nothing is done only welfare (and drug dealing) stands between all these people and Calcutta level poverty.

And it’s clear to me that the US government will have to soon start openly inflating the currency. Oil is being tied to the Euro and other currencies for 1st time. The US has suddenly stoped publishing M3 - the amount of US currency in international circulation. The US is losing in this year the ability to control the dollar vs major commodities - such as oil.

If a superinflation hits, or any number of other problems that are increasingly likely, what will happen to the no-skill parasites who are not in prison? Will welfare be indexed for inflation? Will the government give them a Katrina Trailer?

I’m not scary. We live in scary times. We can prepare our young people better than we are doing now. Each student black white and brown needs to be taught to their ability to make the most of their ability. That can’t occur in a mixed ability environment.

By jim dumond

March 1, 2006 10:53 AM | Link to this

Set,

Take these one at a time.

1) yes

2) Yes,

3) yes

4) You fail to grasp my point that the choice should be there’s, not yours.

5)Read my previous top 10 lists.

6)The rest of your post is mere rantings I refuse to acknowledge.

By SET

March 1, 2006 02:27 PM | Link to this

Jim

Thanks for the feedback. I see your yes answers and I disagree that children have a right to force their placement in a school or program that they are unqualified for and can’t keep up in. In other words I believe in entrance requirements for public academic secondary schools.

I supported McGovern in the early 70’s. I voted for Clinton, then Bush both times. As I’ve become older I’ve become more alarmed about the downward spiral I am seeing in CA and the USA. I went to public high school here. I briefly taught in a public secondary school system while waiting for Bar results. No one I know who is anybody will send their kids to all but a few public high schools in this state. My Law school classmates are making huge sacrifices to send their children to private secondary schools. One of my closest friends is spending $20k tuition alone a year for two teenagers to go to Catholic High School. Plus the children drive themselves an hr each way to school in heavy traffic. This despite living in a “good” neighborhood of $550k houses. Some of my co-workers this year are finding out that AMT has kicked in and they must pay unexpected IRS Tax bills because AMT kills our (CA) higher mortgage interest deductions and such. So we feel much less generous than in 1973. Local Tax increases are harder to pass here. The middle class is squeezed. Our median house prices are huge.

I hope I’m wrong about the near future. My education, training and experience says I’m not.

Enjoy the rant. Let’s hope it isn’t an early warning. I appreciate contra opinions although I don’t understand what yours is based on. Maybe conditions are still great in GA. We’re sinking here.

Given a little more time what happened to our schools will happen to your schools also. I hope you can keep your standards up.

By jim dumond

March 1, 2006 02:53 PM | Link to this

I’ll attempt to stay off my soap box.

But what you are proposing eliminates free will and choice. I feel very strongly about these liberties and am not about to give them up for anyone or anything.

While our schools here may struggle to educate ALL, it is our obligation to make it available to ALL. JMHO, but I believe many would opt for an alternate education or training if it were offered, and I guess thats my point, they would choose. Many that would choose this route know early in life they won’t be continuing on to college and would willingly remove themselves, allowing for our public system to better provide not only for them but for the kids with aspirations of college.

IT boils down to a matter of choice, and thats all it would be.

By Charles

March 1, 2006 03:14 PM | Link to this

Lauren, SET is a very scary person. He is a minority that doesn’t like himself and he is the reason I don’t participate much on blogs anymore. SET— You are wrong about the AMT taxes…higher mortage deducations are not the reason you are are being taxed more. Whatelse are you trying to right off????

By Charles

March 1, 2006 03:26 PM | Link to this

And then to read that he is a law student…more like “SELL OUT” student.

By Charles

March 1, 2006 03:32 PM | Link to this

And then again…..you can be anything you want to be on blogs….

By SET

March 1, 2006 04:58 PM | Link to this

Charles:

Must have given you the wrong impression, WAS a law student - a long time ago.

Love your sell out comment. You assume I care about you. I don’t. I am not on your side. I don’t know you at all. I can’t sell you out because I have no duty of loyalty to you. Get that?

As to the AMT - California and similar high mortgage cost states are seeing the effects of it first. That much I am sure of. It serves as a check of those who make a certain amount of income then use large amounts of itemized deductions to offset that income and lower their tax burden. When it kicks in it imposes an alternative tax total disregarding the itemized deductions. AMT is not indexed for inflation so over time inflation pushes more and more middle calss families into it. With our double incomes and huge home prices & mortgages we have AMT problems pushed into the middle class. Real Estate values here has nearly doubled since 2001. So we hurt more than you do in GA on this issue.

Jim’s renewed point makes me pause. Is there is happy medium where school district could open up a vocational track as a choice families could make for their students to enroll in? Anything that gives people a chance to move into what works for them is a huge improvement over our one-size-fit’s-all secondary school system.

And if you think I’m scary, come visit the principal cities of CA for awhile. People are not happy. We voted Arnold S. in as Governor, voted in 3 strikes when the legislature was too soft on crime, and voted in other reactionary ballot measures like the cutoff of services to illegals and anti-bilingual measures. We have 650 people on death row. We set trends for the rest of the country.

Here we see public school kids leaving their schools at a disadvantage. That’s not the way it used to be even when I graduated in the 70’s. I want something better for the public schools and for my tax dollars. Thus my interest in education policy.

And I appreciate Jim’s point. More choice before forced selection.

By David200

March 1, 2006 05:01 PM | Link to this

Guys, I see both your sides. I agree that it’s tough to look at a kid, and his parent(s), and say, “Sorry, you’re just not smart enough to go to the academic school.” It goes against everything we have been told about a “Democracy.” It would just about kill me to have someone say that about my child.

On the other hand, globalization is here whether or not we want it to be. The jobs available are being outsourced all over the globe. The pay scale is what the market says it is. It used to be that China and the rest of Asia would send their graduate students to the USA to educate, and they would stay here and become a citizen and demand a USA pay scale for their work. Now, China has universities equal to ours, or their students use distance learning from our universities and work in their home country for comparable peanuts. I remember reading in the AJC about a TV show in India making fun of the fact that our stupid citizens have to call their workers in India to find out how to use a computer. That’s embarressing to us as a nation; our nation, the USA, is the butt of jokes. We have to get tough as a nation or we will die. Somebody has to decide who should get the available “face-time” with academic teachers. Parents are rarely able to view their ofspring in a neutral light. Every parent believes their child is above-average. Unfortunately, that’s just not true. The Constitution notwithstanding, everyone was not created equal.

I don’t know the solution, but we better come up with one fast!

By Lee

March 3, 2006 10:27 AM | Link to this

Ok, here is the great paradox of American public schools. We want to prepare every student as if they were going to college, but our curriculum is geared so that the lowest performing student will “not be left behind.” In this scenario, we fail at both.

At the most basic level, we do not prepare our students very well. For example, ask any graduating senior to explain how compound interest and the minimum payment works on a credit card and they can’t tell you. This is why we have citizens who know all the characters on the Simpsons, but can’t tell you more than one or two of the Bill of Rights.

At the highest level, our college prep students are held back until they get to high school and are able to get into the College Prep / Advanced Placement curriculum. We should allow them to progress at their own pace and not be constrained by the idiotic age/grade system now in use. Yes folks, this means tracking.

One final note, I think a study of Western Civilization, including an intense study of the rise and fall of the Roman Empire, should be required for all HS students. The similarities between American Civilization and the Romans is eerily similar. Those that don’t learn from history are doomed to repeat it….

But hey, the football team made the playoffs so everything is fine. Right….??

By Lee

March 3, 2006 10:51 AM | Link to this

SET, per your earlier comment, we’re sinking here in GA as well. However, the analogy about cooking a lobster comes to mind. You know, you put the lobster in cold water and turn up the heat slowly.

The biggest problem we face (well, other than idiotic educrats) is the massive influx of illegal aliens. At least California had a tradition of hispanic influence. Here in Ga, we went from Hispanics being about 1% of the population to about 20%. My very small, rural Ga school system spent almost $1 million dollars last year on ESOL teachers and programs. That’s almost $1 million to hire spanish speaking teachers to try to teach a bunch of illegal aliens who don’t pay taxes. Parents with the ability to do so, like myself, have pulled our kids out of this cesspool and placed them in private school.

Years ago, the city of Dalton, Ga., with its many carpet mills, was one of the richest school systems in Ga. The surrounding county school district was one of the poorest. Now, the City of Dalton Schools are about 80% hispanic. Needless to say, every key performance indicator for these schools has gone into the toilet. But hey, at least the carpet mills can compete with China, although the quality of life is equalizing as well….

Bottom line, our football team made the playoffs this year, so everything is okay. Right….?

By SET

March 3, 2006 11:40 AM | Link to this

You in the other states have no idea how bad bad is going to get with the Mexican colonization of the USA.

It will mean the cultural takeover of your land and the financial collapse of your local governments.

And your black population will see their economic progress since the 1960s destroyed in one generation. You have to see it to believe it. I have seen it in California.