Home > Gwinnett > Rick Badie / My Opinion > Archives > 2008 > August > 22 > Entry
Reclaim students ‘old-school’ way
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
James Taylor is “old-school.” He was among the black students who integrated the University of South Carolina, and he’s been in education for decades and currently oversees discipline for Gwinnett County schools.
He has a favorite saying: “We don’t suspend students. We don’t expel students. We suspend or expel certain behaviors. If a child attaches himself to a certain behavior that is unacceptable, there are consequences.”
Recently, Taylor gave school officials a discipline report for the 2007-2008 school year. The report showed that, of 1,910 discipline hearings held that year, 931 of those were held for black students. About 18 percent, or 345, discipline panels were held for white students.
In other words, black students racked up half the disciplinary hearings, though they make up less than a third of the student body. There’s a term for this: “disproportionate discipline” of minority students. It’s an issue that schools across the nation grapple with, Taylor explained.
A smaller percentage of black students were disciplined in the 2007-08 school year than the year before, but Gwinnett’s disproportionate numbers are still a concern. Various measures have been suggested, including cultural sensitivity training for administrators and programs to reward positive behavior. Taylor has already ended the school system’s “zero-tolerance policy.”
But while Gwinnett officials rightly ponder measures to keep kids in school, let’s hope they also keep in mind what I consider the problem’s root. It revolves around a message that too many kids — skin color aside — apparently don’t hear enough at home anymore. It’s one my parents, salt-of-the-earth people, gave us with no frills, fancy words or concern for feelings. You attend school to learn. Sit down. Shut up. Do as you’re told.
These days, it’s commonplace to point fingers at the system — at the teacher who is out to get me; at the administration that’s racist or racialist or unfair. Some of that may be true. Some is pure perception.
Let’s be honest, though: It’s highly unlikely that all 931 black kids would have been disciplined if they’d all had a mom, dad or grandma who laid down the law. Consistently. Too many of us have gotten away from the no-nonsense child-rearing my mom and dad practiced. It’s considered dated, out of touch, country.
But look at what’s happening to our kids.
“We have got to reclaim our kids,” Taylor said. “We have a message we need to hammer home.”
He plans to do just that by visiting black churches to deliver this message: Gwinnett schools don’t want to show students the door. That pushes down the graduation rate, among other things.
But we are a society of standards and expectations, he points out. In schools, they boil down to two areas — academic standards and behavioral standards. These standards are uniform, in place for everybody.
I hope Taylor ends his talks with another one of his sayings as it relates to school discipline: “If you don’t want to be expelled or suspended, don’t attach yourself to behavior that is unacceptable.”
Rick Badie updates his Gwinnett blog Monday through Friday. Readers who want to discuss the topics he writes about may post comments online (www.ajc.com/gwinnett) or contact Badie directly. He may be reached at 770-263-3875 or e-mail rbadie@ajc.com.
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Comments
By BobG
August 22, 2008 6:18 PM | Link to this
Great article, Rick. “School” really isn’t much different than when you and I were in it. What has changed are the students (or, as you note, more likely the parents).
By Warren Buck
August 22, 2008 6:59 PM | Link to this
Great! Thank you!
By Michael H. Smith
August 22, 2008 9:23 PM | Link to this
Evidently Mr. Taylor our parents attended the same “old school”. I’m glad to see you are bringing back that “old school” curriculum.
By MSB
August 23, 2008 6:40 AM | Link to this
Although kids resist rules and enforcement, they actually deep down crave and need it.
By Jack
August 23, 2008 11:00 AM | Link to this
Rick Badie for president.
By Sloan
August 23, 2008 11:24 AM | Link to this
My house was broken into by black kids. Luckily I caught them all as I was driving up to my house. My car has been broken into twice, by black kids. I know this because once, my neighbor gave a detailed description to the police when she saw it out her window. Second time, I saw him running from my car. In fact, everytime I have been the victim of a crime, it has been by someone who is black. About every 1 house out of 10 in my neighborhood is black. Am I just having bad luck or maybe they REALLY do commit a heck of a lot more offenses than the whites do? How can you deem something dissapropriate based on simple stats alone? Are you also saying our prison populations are dissapropriate to the actual crimes being committed out there?
By Parent
August 23, 2008 12:41 PM | Link to this
When is a non zero tolerance policy a zero tolerance policy ?
When a local school says so, and that is far more often than people want to admit.
I don’t think the concern is that disciplinary action is given, it is that the action is more frequently applied and more harshly applied for minority students and special education students for similar behaviors.
Let’s get real here, the detailed data by rule type violation is a good starting point - why not examine the data in detail ? That would be a good starting point for pondering and asking questions, it is at least as valid a starting place as visiting black churches, blaming the system, or asking for sensitivity training for our superintendent.
There is no one easy solution, but not looking at the data in detail to understand the extent of the problem is just foolhardy.
By Michael H. Smith
August 23, 2008 12:50 PM | Link to this
This morning I came across a comment that made the hair stand up on the back of my neck. The statement asserts that GCPS tried to lower disciplinary standards last year and now is engaged in trying to retrain teachers in “cultural sensitivity”.
It is very obvious to me with James Taylor overseeing discipline for Gwinnett County schools there will be only one standard of culture. The right one!
For the politically correct and for all others in great need of a sane mind it is my hope Mr. Taylor does offend you with his “old school” standards. I hope he offends the NAACP or at the very least corrects them for not doing what they should have been doing all along, in going out into the community and churches with this message: Let’s be honest, it’s highly unlikely that all 931 black kids would have been disciplined if they’d all had a mom, dad or grandma who laid down the law, consistently. Too many of us have gotten away from the no-nonsense child-rearing my mom and dad practiced.
That applies to every child or adolescent of any and every stripe. Also, parents should realize that nurturing children is a 24/7/365 lifetime obligation that no one else is meant to do but you.
As my parents told me again and again, no, they actually demanded and demanded, one thing of me when I went to school: The grade of A+ in conduct. They even told me how to get that A+ in conduct in every class: Stay in your set, keep your mouth shut and listen to the teacher.
My parents never called for apologies nor would they accept an apology from me for my bad behavior, because they would never accept failure or allow me to accept it. To some that may seem like harsh teaching, someone might think of it as child abuse, though my parent’s firm message taught me a lesson that proved invaluable.
There are no failures where learning occurs, leading to success.
By Lee
August 23, 2008 12:56 PM | Link to this
…and the 800 pound gorilla in the room is IQ and the fact that there are differences between the races and these differences manifest themselves in the two areas mentioned in the column - academic and behavioral attributes.
But, the politically correct will cling to their pathology and chant about everyone being equal…
…while those on the front lines, our teachers, policemen et al, know the reality.
By Carthage
August 23, 2008 2:18 PM | Link to this
Great column Rick.
While none of my teachers would have named me as a problem student when I was in school, I was a bit wayward in my approach to education when I was a teen. A little quality time with my Uncle Sam taught me the discipline and respect I didn’t seem to pick up earlier.
The GCPS discipline report seems to skew inappropriately towards black students, but I doubt the issue is solely black vs. white. If there was a way to drill down into those numbers to determine how many students on the report had an involved, caring, committed parent (or two) raising them I think the data would be even more revealing.
The kid breaking into your car might look black, but I think he/she’s more accurately classified as ignored, neglected, or at a minimum, unsupervised. Too bad these days spending quality time with your Uncle Sam can be so hazardous to your health.
By Dr. Craig Spinks
August 24, 2008 2:07 AM | Link to this
Mr. James Taylor from Gwinnett County and Dr. Wayne Frazier from Richmond County must be cut from the same cloth- a cloth woven to prepare all kids, Black and otherwise, to live in a civilized society as decent, self-disciplined, responsible, open-minded and productive citizens.
By Parent
August 24, 2008 11:21 AM | Link to this
Since no one seems to have yet dug into the data on the disciplinary reports (that goes for journalists as well as the general public) , I decided to. And I have a couple of questions that I am very surprised were not discussed at the board meeting, if our school board members even gave the report a glace.
Are there any schools within in our county that have trended differently for minority, male or special education discipline disparity ?
Are there any major rule violation categories that trended differently for minority, male or special education populations ?
Why, if no one was trying to “push kids out of the door” did some schools experience huge drops in sending kids to panel; ie Brookwood & GIVE East ? These drops only occured after the discipline policy was shored up and standards put in place for administrators ?
If all of the national research is right, and special education, minorities and males are getting more frequent and harsher discipline in our schools….then there is a glaring statistical concern in the GCPS stats. If you look at the major rule violations, most rule violations that call for behavior that in my opinion endangers the safety of the school (drugs, weapons, fighting) went down or stayed around the same after the policy was changed this year. The only two rule violations that really jumped in increases this year (162% & 50% )Disruption of School & Disregard of Commands. So why doesn’t someone ask to see the disparity by educational type, gender, and race of these two categories versus the others ? We may just see something of interest, maybe a lot of elementary kids are pulling fire alarms, or maybe something else is going on.
Why is the public and why are our school board members and superintendent not asking some obvious questions of the data instead of doing a head fake and talking about Idaho ?
By Jack
August 24, 2008 12:44 PM | Link to this
Culturally learned expectations contribute to any IQ disparity that may or may not exist. Could you pass an IQ test given in Swahili? That’s an extreme example but it goes to the heart of racism.
By Mark
August 24, 2008 2:15 PM | Link to this
More blacks are disiplined at school. More blacks are behind bars even tho they make up 17% of the population in this country. Low pants, ebonics, gangs, thieves,(c)rap “music”, murderers, wake up people!! These nogs could care less about learning. Their idols are punks and thugs. They think that (C)rap “music”, or basketball is their way to live. It IS all in black and white…..
By KIM
August 24, 2008 6:23 PM | Link to this
I have told my children and grandchildren many times. No one goes into education and works as hard as teachers do to become classroom disciplinarians. Good grief! What misery that would be. BUT when discipline has to be done, no one should ask himself/herself, “Should I expect this student to behave or should I excuse it for any reason???” I wanted my children to be taught in classes where students were respectful and wanted an education. I want the same for my grandchildren…and for yours…no matter who you are. All parents should be outraged when their children do not focus on school. I never fail to wonder why they aren’t? And don’t blame the teachers who are doing everything in their power to overcome the social ills (music, tv, computer, filthy language used by kids to communicate via text messaging, email, IM, Xanga, FAcebook, poor homelife, lack of supervision) to teach. And, to all who don’t like the stats, EXPECT more of everyone who you love: the kids, your spouse, your neighbors, the church…expect excellence to the highest degree!
By Bruce Wilcox
August 24, 2008 7:54 PM | Link to this
A question, what is the percentage of Black teachers to White teachers in the Gwinnett County School system?
It would be an interesting fact to find out would it not?
By linda
August 24, 2008 8:01 PM | Link to this
Making rules and consequences clear is only fair to children and isn’t really rocket science. Administrators simply need to have the guts to enforce in the face of parent complaints. If they can’t do that then they should be taken out of such a position. That won’t happen until the parents of well-behaved children become as vocal and demanding as the parents of the students who misbehave. JACK - if you think IQ tests are culturally biased, please explain how some cultures come to school not even speaking English and somehow still excel on these tests. Black children who were born in the US should have an advantage over these non-native speakers so I don’t understand how you feel they are biased.
By Parent
August 24, 2008 10:32 PM | Link to this
Bruce, according to the 07 report card for gwinnett, and no calculator on hand, I estimate about 12% of teachers are African American.
Interestingly enough, if you read the state report analysis that is done by the office of accountability every year , African American male administrators assign the harshest consequences for discipline.every year the state analyzes the disparity of discipline issue, and it says the same thing year after year, with very little strategy commitment.
By Bruce Wilcox
August 24, 2008 11:09 PM | Link to this
Thank you Parent, that adds a whole new dimension. Now Rick, let’s discuss the issue knowing more of the facts.
By Parent
August 24, 2008 11:24 PM | Link to this
Bruce,
Bravo - please someone take an interest in the data and ask some questions.
GCPS does not support sharing actionable and detailed data with the public.
As long as we continue to scapegoat the problem to parents, kids, and teachers, we won’t be looking at the intended and unintended consequences of policy and practice which is where a significant part of the responsibility rests.
By Michael H. Smith
August 25, 2008 12:34 AM | Link to this
Hooey.
By Jennifer
August 25, 2008 6:49 AM | Link to this
What does hooey mean ?
By Mia Wallace
August 25, 2008 9:49 AM | Link to this
Let’s be honest, though: It’s highly unlikely that all 931 black kids would have been disciplined if they’d all had a mom, dad or grandma who laid down the law.
Rick: you always fall back on this tired excuse its the parents fault blah, blah,blah. I’m so tired of your finger wagging moralizing. Your kids aren’t exactly the best behaved.
“Parent” did your job for you and actually analyzed the data. Guess you didn’t think of doing that.
By Mary's Mom
August 25, 2008 10:38 AM | Link to this
Hooey = Hogwash
By RonnieB
August 25, 2008 2:58 PM | Link to this
Mr. Badie:
Much of what you say is true. All kids must be prepared to learn in an educational setting. No exceptions.
At the same time, you missed (or maybe avoided) an opportunity to demonstrate courage in the face of prevailing ideology. While you rightly point out that some of those Black children could have remained out of the “disproportionate displine” percentage through good parenting and enforcement of values, there still remains the equally real issue of disproportionate discipline and those who dispense it.
You offered no solutions whatsoever to address that side of the equation. Hopefully your next column will do just that.
By Badie
August 25, 2008 4:19 PM | Link to this
Ronnie: I read your posting on my blog. Please note in the column that I referred to suggestions and ideas that are being considered - and probably will be implemented - by Gwinnett schools. They include cultural sensitivity training and rewards for positive behavior, among other measures. Also, please note that Gwinnett schools assigned a task force to address the disparity discipline problem. Thanks for your posting.
By KIM
August 25, 2008 8:02 PM | Link to this
Dear Parent and others, Diversity training is good for ALL people. I suggest that you, too, have diversity training: how to behave in schools that expect behavior. Diversity is not about skin color..it is about expectations, what is considered respectful and what is not, what is disruptive to anyone’s conscentration and what is not. And it certainly is about doing what is right…paying attention to the teachers, and not doing anything that suggests inappropriate behavior. Quit hammering on what you cannot find evidence of: school administrators who want to get in the way of any student’s success. You will NEVER find a school administrator who wants to deal with your child or you on discipline issues. Work WITH ALL others…not just those of your background. There are four teachers in our family and not one went into education to deal with problematic students. They went in it to teach ALL children… even the extremely polite one as well as the ill-mannered ones.
By Parent
August 26, 2008 12:22 AM | Link to this
Mr. Badie,
I think you may be misinformed. I don’t think sensitivity training or rewards for positive behavior (PBIS) are being considered for implementation. Those were idea’s from the community according to the articles I read, but I may have missed something.